Guns in the backcountry....

topic posted Mon, January 14, 2008 - 1:58 PM by 
The last time we had a discussion about guns in the backcountry it got really nasty and I had to delete a large percentage of the postings since they degenerated into personal attacks and some members even left tribe over the discussion topic. Please remember that this tribe is actively moderated and I will delete any posting that I feel is out of line. This is an important and very emotional issue for many of us and if we can all be polite I'm curious as to what your feelings on the matter are.

Despite being somewhat of a collector, I rarely carry a firearm while backpacking and it's purely a matter of the location of the trailhead. It's illegal to carry a gun in most US National Parks (there are exceptions) and I don't feel a need to 99 percent of the time. The only time I have ever felt that I might have needed one was returning to a trailhead after a weekend trip and finding a car broken into (not mine) in the parking lot and a group of what sounded like gang banger types partying within earshot. Other than that, bears, snakes and wildlife does not intimidate me and I don't like the extra weight on my shoulder strap.

So, how many of you will or do "carry", if so what type, and why.
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  • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

    Mon, January 14, 2008 - 11:16 PM
    I carry whenever its legal. I never shoot in the back country unless I'm hunting. I believe that if you want to shoot guns then go to a range. Few things ruin the pristine beauty of the wilderness like some jag shooting guns (or motorcycles, or loud music.)

    I have carried my original Ruger 3-screw Blackhawk for many years. It is a reliable, accurate sidearm that will handle full-house loads. It is suitable for deer hunting.

    When I take my kids camping in bear country I sometimes carry a light rifle. Either a diminuitive 7mm Mauser or my compensated 1895 in 45-70. With Bear there is no substitute for a rifle. I take no chances with my kids.
  • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

    Tue, January 15, 2008 - 2:42 AM
    Nah, don't carry any more.

    For rattlesnakes, I've found the best thing to use is a walking stick. Typically, I see it on the trail, nudge it with the stick, it wakes up and rattles, I ask permission to use the trail, then I wait until it leaves and once it's safely off-trail, I go on about my business. There have been a couple of times when I've recognized that sound, but couldn't immediately tell where it was coming from. Part of the problem is that I have a 50db hearing loss on the left side (since I was 12), so I don't hear stereo real well and I don't usually have enough aural discrimination to have directional hearing. So when I hear that sound, I have to stop and do a visual scan until I locate the threat - which can take a bit if the snake happens to be well camoflauged.

    On my long trip in 1991, I was in San Diego County and had the delightful opportunity to watch as a rattlesnake worked its way down to a small trickle of water and take a delicate drink. I was busy shooting 35mm pix of the process, but the film didn't turn out because I hadn't gotten the leading part of the spool into the take-up reel correctly - lost all the shots. I'd read Colin Fletcher's "The Man Who Walked Through Time", and was hoping that the rattlesnake would yawn and curl up for a nap, but it didn't happen.

    The ones that startle me are the snake they call the "Racer". They will suddenly split and all you hear is the sudden movement. By the time you react, they are already gone. They don't stick around for you to take pictures of them. I've had many more adrenaline rushes from the Racers than I have from the Rattlesnakes.

    The first bear encounter I had was south of the Kern Plateau, not far north of Walker Pass. It ran off after the second time I said "Hello" to it. All the other encounters I've had have been in the Sierras. The most serious one lasted about 45 minutes and I was saved by a couple of girls that were out backpacking with their dogs - apparently the bear didn't want deal with the dogs, so it split when it realized they were headed towards us. The girls never saw the bear and thought I was nuts for thanking them so profusely.

    Would a gun have helped? Maybe. Maybe firing a round would have scared it away, but if so, then I could have used a firecracker to do the same thing. I do know that if I'd killed the bear I wouldn't be happy about it.

    I don't go into Grizzly Country, so I dunno what to do about them.

    Most other animals are not an issue. Ok, I have been known to threaten Stellar Jays - they are outright obnoxious, especially early in the morning. Damn camp thieves.

    Oh, I've had encounters with livestock too. Trail Cows are dumb, really dumb. They will walk up the trail to get away from you, then become afraid when you follow them. I've also had an encounter with a wild bull - fortunately, I was atop a large boulder at the time, and it walked around rather than come near me. Can't imagine using a handgun or rifle if I were suddenly confronted with a charging bull.

    Deer can occasionally be a problem, and they are another reason to not leave food lying around. They are generally not a problem and will usually avoid you. Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible to reason with an upset buck, and they know how to fight - they can be deadly. I would try to shoot one if I felt threatened, but it doesn't happen often enough for me to worry about.

    Don't worry about the Wolf. You may never see one. There have been almost no wolf attacks in the past 150 years in the west, possibly only one. They aren't worth worrying about. I have had the privledge of seeing a wolf in the wild, while backpacking near Echo Summit. I didn't recognize it for such at the time, but realized what it was a couple of days after I got back from the trip, when a friend showed me her AKC registered wolf puppies.

    Coyotes never come near enough to me to make me worry. I have bigger problems with mosquitoes and ants.

    I carried for about 150 miles, then decided that the weight wasn't worth the amount of use I was getting from it. Also, I wasn't happy about the nicks and dings - and rust - that I had to try and deal with when I got the revolver back off the trail. The rust issue is one of the reasons I've switched over to stainless steel weapons. I quit carrying while backpacking in the 1980s.

    Come to think of it, for my long trip in 1991 I even sent my hunting knife back home. It is a Buck 119, which is a beautiful and durable Bowie Knife, but it weighed too much for the amount of use I got from it. After sending it back, I got along just fine with a swiss army knife.

    As always, your mileage may vary.
    • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

      Tue, January 15, 2008 - 4:53 AM
      Quaydin scribed: "For rattlesnakes, I've found the best thing to use is a walking stick...."

      For a moment I thought you were going *downhill* with that one, then I continued to read on. Good on ya for leaving the critters be! I always consider it a gift whenever I see a wild creature that's not a squirrel or jaybird (but they're okay, too).

      Back to the original question: I've never felt a need for a gun in the backcountry or even hiking in general. I am permitted and own a small pistol, plus have a couple of heirloom firearms from my G-Grandfather, but that's it.

      We do have many black bears in this neck of the woods (Southern Appalachians USA), and red wolves have been reintroduced, but for me it's more of a joy to see one instead of any consternation.

      Now there is this rare biped that one must be aware of, and it ain't Sasquash I'm speaking of!
      • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

        Tue, January 15, 2008 - 8:03 AM
        May I suggest red pepper spray. I spent a lot of time out west with Grizz this summer and the bear spray they have out here is the real deal. I bought some back east before coming out and it was like baby bear spray compared to what they have out here. This stuff shoots a good thirty feet in a straight line - tested it. I am sure it would deter anything. The closest I've come to an animal attack was from stray dogs and on one occasion I felt truly threatened. When you are alone and ten miles from the nearest road, if this big German Shepard -owners ?- had sunk a fang into an artery I would have been toast. I keep it in a shoulder strap pocket where it is always available and I think it might be a none lethal deterent that may even help women feel a little safer. I'm pretty sure that if you hit a man in the face with this it would at least give a chance to withdraw.
        I do take my wife's 357 when we go car camping on occasion. I have had rednecks come along shooting out of their car on more than one occasion.
        • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

          Tue, January 15, 2008 - 9:42 AM
          I don't carry for the animal life I encounter. I treasure every wildlife encounter I have had, even the ones most people fear, rattlesnakes and even mother and cub bears. I always respect them and honor that I am in their terrritory. Never once felt my life was threatened, even though I probably should have on several occasions.

          A wolf in the Sierra's, are you certain it wasn't a rather large coyote? I own a high content wolfdog and would love to see a wolf in the wild, but one in the Sierra's?

          Now as for people, I have felt uncomfortable on more than a couple of occasions. Enough that I began to carry a 357, small, light and reliable. Hope to never even hold it in need, but its always there.

          My parents were camping in the southern dessert somewhere near San Diego and had a lost squad of marines show up in camp with m-16's and night vision. Scared the living crap out of them. They had to provide direction back to the training area, haha.
          • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

            Tue, January 15, 2008 - 9:43 AM
            also, sadly, the AKC does NOT recognize wolfdogs as a breed.
            • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

              Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:10 PM
              i never had any idea so many people carried guns in the backcountry or car camping or hiking. i have never even considered doing it. i even do a bunch of stuff on my own. (solos)

              i will say that the times i have and do feel the most uncomfortable are car camping. worried about break-ins, drunk ass holes, even rape. there are a lot of people who car camp who aren't there to just chill and enjoy the outdoors. more there to party and trouble make. i guess when backpacking you kinda of know you are surrounded by like-minded people. when car camping it is a mix of all sorts of people.

              anyway this whole gun thing is really interesting to me. part of me feels like "gee what am i missing?" "is this something i really need?" the other part of me is really stuck in my convictions that no i don't want a gun and no i don't need a gun.

              part of me is now uncomfortable and more concerned now that i know there are a decent amount of people carrying guns in the backcountry.

              the whole idea kind of takes away from the peace i find in backpacking. the break i get from life among the concrete trees.

              backpacking is risky in all sorts of ways. guns for protection from people? from animals?

              i'm just fascinated and surprised by all of this. no backpackers i know actually carry a gun so it's interesting to hear that so many people here do.
              • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

                Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:23 PM
                Well, at the risk of sounding cliché. Guns don't create unrest. People do.

                I have friends who are kinda anti-gun. They have their reasons, but I note a weird phenomenon when we're out. We'll be having a great time. Enjoying each other's company. Then someone becomes aware that I'm carrying. Or I bring up an invitation to go to the range. It's amazing how an attitude will change in that instant. *I* didn't change during those hours we were having a great time. My sidearm didn't go away and come back during that time. What changed?

                The woods will not change. Your relationship to nature doesn't change because you have a sidearm. YOU might change because it's on your mind. But for decent, earth loving folk, it's just another tool in the kit.
            • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

              Tue, January 15, 2008 - 8:02 PM
              It is my understanding that they recognize dogs that have Plains Wolf in them.

              That's hearsay, though - I've never been interested enough to study up on the matter.
              • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

                Tue, January 15, 2008 - 8:40 PM
                I have seen my dad put down a couple of animals that were suffering and going to die. Ending their misery was a good use for a gun. The only one I have witnessed so far (We did not have the pink injectable euthanasia juice that vets have)

                I have used pepper spray once during a run in rural Florida, on vacation. Neighborhood dogs were pretty scary. I had done the loop before and got some close calls with the dogs, so took the pepper spray on the next work-out and it was a good choice! They did not bother me much in subsequent runs.

                I know people that backpack with guns so yes Mango, it is good to have this awareness! (that some people out there carry guns concealed in their backpacks). This is why I am very polite with everybody ;-)....and be aware of their gun carrying status before drinking with them and then discussing politics DON'T!!!!

                As far as bears, once I totally forgot I am only 100 lbs and went screaming and banging pots and pans after a bear because the beast was trying to steal my food. I do get upset when anything tries to steal my food (and yes ditto on the stellar jays). The bear did go away. The last time I saw a bear was actually in Altadena, on the connector trail between Lowe road and the lower Sam Merrill trail. It was a teenager, dark brown descending the side of the hill. I respectfully backtracked, and went back the way i came from ....not a good idea to do the more isolated portions in the evening. Anyway, I felt blessed that I had this experience, would not want to harm the beast, This time it was not trying to steal my food so I was not mad at it ya know...
          • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

            Tue, January 15, 2008 - 8:00 PM
            "A wolf in the Sierra's, are you certain it wasn't a rather large coyote? I own a high content wolfdog and would love to see a wolf in the wild, but one in the Sierra's?"

            I'd put the probability that it was not a coyote at above 95%.

            I've seen coyotes 'up close' in Yosemite, and there is a difference.
  • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

    Thu, January 17, 2008 - 10:21 AM
    Glock 21 & my trusty ka-bar. But I also have a metal flare gun that can handle light load 12 gauge loads and with no choke its going to be a close quarters gun. Although a 25MM flare can do some good damage too.

    As I mentioned before, I don't carry a gun or any other weapon expecting trouble. I also don't have misguided aspirations to be some sort of wilderness avenger or even a religious or political "campfire crazy" as was mentioned earlier. I'm a responsible adult and I've been carrying a gun while out in the bush since i was a kid. I carry a gun in my daily life when I'm in the mood and thankfully I've never had to use it or even pull it out.

    In years of concealed carry, I have only had a handful of times where someone unexpectedly brushed against it. Yes it does change their mood the first time they realize I'm carrying, but after a while they get used to the idea and realize that I'm the same person I was before and that because I'm armed I'm no more dangerous than I was before. If I'm having an argument with someone I'm not going to suddenly loose my mind pull my gun out and shoot them or any of the other silly nonsense that people say. Anyone who would do something like that doesn't deserve the privilege of gun ownership.

    Gun people are often the nicest people I know. You don't see people walking around the gun store/range talking loudly and using their guns to scratch their backs or firing off bullets to change the channel on the tv. In my experience its always been calm and after a day of shooting at the range I'm just as calm and satisfied as I am after a 20 mile hike. My body is a little tired from the wear, but all good things come with a little pain.

    I don't discharge my gun on public land, and on private land the downrange is never in the direction of civilization of any kind. But mostly I shoot in climate controlled gun ranges. Obviously it only takes a couple idiots and a few choice news articles to make anyone who owns and carries a gun to be some sort of nut with an underlying hostility towards other people. I dont go around picking fights, I do not nor have ever had any aspiration to be a cop or law enforcement type person. I would rather avoid a confrontation than get in one. I have only drawn my weapon for self protection once, that was a shotgun and I pulled it out of my truck and that was because of a conflict that was starting to brew between four rednecks and some of the people in my camp and that was only because they where walking around with weapons. (Evidently a chainsaw went missing and since we where not locals we where #1 suspects. Turns out another local stole the saw,)

    I have both gun locks and a safe at home and on the trail my gun is secured by a quick release trigger lock, which allows me to carry it loaded and safe.

    So on to the question of why I carry. Because I can and because I like it. I LIKE GUNS. I've been shooting paper for sport since I was 12 and I genuinely enjoy it. From a self protection standpoint. I enjoy the option of being able to protect myself the next time some idiot walks into a classroom, shopping mall or even my job with ill intent. I'm not going to run into these scenes trying to play hero civilian who thinks he's a cop. Their is a genuine interest in self preservation here. Just like when polite society carried deringer guns concealed in pockets and special purses made to conceal guns and money.

    Their is something wrong with society today. All it takes is one moron to do something and you have 101 morons copycatting him. Columbine, Omaha Mall Shooting, Postal/Job shootings and now this idiot thats gone out on trails hurting outdoors people. I'm not worried about animals I'm worried about predators. Gun laws serve to insure that the folks who carry them are usually criminals and not law abiding citizens who have their head on and pointing in the correct direction. Last time I checked criminals outnumber cops.

    Hopefully none of you ever find yourself on the business end of a unfriendly gun. But I have and luckily the intent was only robbery and not to rape and kill me and my girlfriend. I'm still trying to make sense of that whole situation.

    I still go camping and backpacking and hiking and every other outdoor thing I can, but I go now packing. And I won't apologize for it if it makes you uncomfortable or changes your view of me. I don't owe anyone an explanation and I'm still the same person I was before. I'm not paranoid about it, I'm just not naive.

    Guns are not for everybody and you don't have to respect my position to carry one. Its very much a personal decision. I hope I never have to actually use it to hurt or kill someone, but given the choice between me or them, well I like me, so the choice is clear.
    • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

      Thu, January 17, 2008 - 2:07 PM
      I'm curious about how much your flare gun and the associated flares weigh in at.

      I thought about carrying a flare gun on my long trip, but couldn't spare the weight.

      My thought was to use it if I needed to be located at night by any SAR party; I wasn't so interested in the self-defense aspect.
      • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

        Thu, January 17, 2008 - 4:10 PM
        I never concern myself with weight. I carry what I need to. It's not like I couldn't use the exercise.

        Oddly enough, the rudest people I have had to deal with are the anti-gunners who see I have a weapon. While I respect their choice to be bear food, they rarely show the same consideration and sneer openly. Very rude people, especially considering that the only thing keeping criminals from preying openly on society is people like me who may have a gun.

        In many parts of the country, avoid a flare gun. They pose serious fire hazards. There are just too many emergency strobe & LEDs available these days.
        • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:08 AM
          Yeah, doesn't do to get spotted because you started a forest fire.
          • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

            Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:10 AM
            Bring as many guns as you want to, just don't be a shithead with 'em!
            • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

              Fri, January 18, 2008 - 2:26 PM
              WOW TED

              Im not a firearm licences holder anymore but if you us'em lawfully then your not goin to be prick with'em

              Their been so much talk of firearms,how to use'em,who to use'em on,how to carry them,danger of transporting, where to and not to take'em

              I was the seconded shooter in the Bambi's mum's case just never convicted Once opon a time .

              but Im in full support of safety with firearms and talking about them and practice in civ life its good subject (but Improvised weapons ?????) dont go there. plastic flare guns with shotshell or penguns .22 or 30.30s there's self harm
      • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

        Sat, January 19, 2008 - 2:51 PM
        I'm not one of these people who weighs their pack. I carry what I feel I need and what experience dictates I'm actually going to use. Rescue gear and medical supplies never get parsed. At 225lbs and athletic, I'm not exactly worried about carrying weight.

        I train normally with a weight vest or pack that comes in somewhere around 40lbs or so I guess by feel. I dont keep track I just put on what feels right at that moment. The only thing a heavy pack does is slow me down, but if I'm going in to make a base camp and explore from their then its only a matter of time, not distance.

        Weighing your pack is a psychological thing. I don't need to know.

        I keep a forestry flare (with wooden handle) and air flares, in either a flare and parachute flare variety. A small selection of chem lights (glow sticks) and a surplus mil rescue strobe, signal mirror, pre-pay sat phone, whistle and a real compass, space blanket (mylar blanket), cyanide pill and swiss firestarter thingy. All fits nicely in a pouch a little larger than the size of a Nalgene liter bottle. And it weighs whatever it weighs. Will I ever need this stuff. Hopefully not until I do, but hopefully never.

        I have enough common sense to not start a forest fire, but in a life and death situation. Given the choice between a forest fire and someone close to me dying. Well thats another natural choice for me. Forest fires happen, and if it wasn't for intervention from mankind trying to save the property of people who have no business living in these areas in the first place, the natural balance of fires would be in place instead of having these huge super duper fires that happen every couple years.
        • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

          Mon, January 28, 2008 - 9:57 AM
          Why do you carry a cyanid pill?
          • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

            Mon, January 28, 2008 - 11:54 AM
            That is a joke, I'm always curious to see who actually reads and who skims. Congratulations!
            • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

              Mon, January 28, 2008 - 2:07 PM
              When I read that, it triggered the memory of the old "Get Smart" episode, there the Chief told Max "...and as a last resort, you can use the Cyanide Pill". Maxwell's reply was "Just one thing, Chief... how do I get them to take it?"
              • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

                Mon, January 28, 2008 - 3:12 PM
                YAY! I passed the test. And thank goodness you were kidding.
                • Re: Guns in the backcountry....

                  Sat, February 2, 2008 - 2:11 AM
                  <But for decent, earth loving folk, it's just another tool in the kit. > Exactly!
                  My old GF wouldn't go outdoorsing with me unless I carried.
                  She had been raped in two separate cases.... =( She was extremely hot and lived in an area crawling with scum-bags at the time. S.F.

                  I never have carried on any of my long solo's through bear country, although once I'd wished I had purely for scare purposes.... Note to self: DO NOT wear coconut scented sun screen to bed in bear country........

                  Did anyone see that thing on TV about the researchers who were working in bear country and one was attacked. That man was armed and did kill the bear. But he waited until the bear had already taken the first bite on his leg. Totally un-provoked. It was sad, but when it comes to me or him..... I want to live.

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